- Map now looks like a christmas tree, I much prefered the old colours.


- There's alot of colour overlapping. 3 blues, 2 reds. Adding a few extra colours (light blue, etc) would help, further differentiate between them. You can't have a shop and a crafting facility in the same location, so why are they both blue?

There's also alot of icon overlapping: Mercy hospital has a shop, missions and a trainer, but can't have 2 colours at the same time (unless you do a colour A/B half square thing) or two icons at the same time. The obvious solution is to disperse these facilities across the other mercy hospital squares (like the campus or stadium do). This solution would not work for Germaine's, for example.

So ultimately I much prefered the old solution of "Blue Square - Contains Shops, mission givers, work areas or training facilities".

OR... just make it a blue square, with the small pop up window now supplying all the relevant facilities information when the mouse is over it. That would be the elegant solution.

There will always be some colour overlapping though, even if it's just from the yellow of mission destinations.

- The combat system is buggy.

a) From what I've been told there's some bug with the pistols that makes you rush into melee as if you were wielding a melee weapons in the old system. One "advance" click and the zombie's ontop of you. Don't have pistols, so can't verify it. Anyone?

b) I engage 3 zombies in combat.

b.1) I switch to gkunai, set for 3x action, click advance. I advance 3x10 (my movement) plus 3x8 (nearest zombie), so that lands us in hand to hand combat with 1 click. Thumbs up.

b.2) Everything was working fine, sliced two down with the giant kunai. Last one I keep clicking advance and he's moving towards me veeeeeery slowly towards me. Why? Because I seem to have lost my 10 yards movement ratio and he's moving towards me at 4 yards per turn. And the 3x thing seems to have taken a vacation as well. And he's at 30 yards. so I click advance. and click some more. and click some more. and click some more. and finally kill him. and it only took me... 8 clicks. to kill a female zombie torso. Buggy bug needs debuggin.

b.3) In my turtle like sprint I notice my SPs are going down as I move forward. Wth? Advance now costs SP? As it turns out.. it doesn't. Even though SP points are being deduced, they "came back" once the combat was finished. So that's gonna draw ALOT of unnecessary flaming until it's fixed.


- Location name on upper right corner seems fairly redundant. Can't say I love the font+colour used for it either.


- I have mixed feelings regarding the animations. I find the vibrating zombies vaguely annoying and tiring to my eyesight. And the information displayed (hit/miss/critical) is already being displayed on the side pop up box (or could/should be). To me the pop up boxes on the side are already redundant information 90% of the time, so now I just have a new way to get redundant information.

I DO like the bullets and slash concept very much, but it needs to be bigger/more gory. A BIG slash as opposed to the little ones would be cooler, and the bullet holes should be actual holes, not just splashes of red. Still, this bit gets a thumbs up.

I suggest using "hit/miss/critical" in a more.. "blood like" font, possibly using red and black. A sunny happy yellow and a bland white in small letters going "hit/miss/crit" is about as boring for a combat font as I can think of.

- A delete button for characters. It's been a long time coming, I'm glad it's finally here. I foresee some issues with premium players potencially abusing it down the road, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

- HP Nerf. I'm starting to hear the moaning and pulling about it. Thumbs up on it from my end.

- Stat point per level nerf - More moaning and pulling of hair to be had from that. Not so happy about it but.. thumbs up on that too.

- Arrows look much cooler now.

Edit:

- Considering that I can only see the helmet of my character when I'm engaging 20 or less zombies, the animations aren't really that annoying. I suppose the noobs will like them, but I would like to have an off switch for them. And for the pop up combat report on the right. Anything that speeds up the combat process is a good thing for me. Anything that adds lag/pause time to it is a bad thing.

- The new building entry points... I like. Saves me from scrolling down to the bottom of the screen to see if there's a door at special location or not. Slightly curious to see how it's handled at locations with multiple entrances (like shops with access to the sewers).

- Ok I'm annoyed.

Combat is all sorts of messed up. I swing a blow against a zombie while already engaged in melee, it costs me FOUR SPs and takes ONE round? Seriously, is no one giving beta feedback about these things on the beta test server? At this point I'm wondering what is the point of having a test server.

Even if this wasn't reported the "advance costs SP" bug was. Why wasn't this fixed before being deployed on to the game server?

Now I'm seeing even crazier fluctuations. Swing a blow, lose 40 SP. Swing a few more blows the 40 SP come back. This is extremely annoying.

- Mina reminded me of the new doors for barricading and such, and I must agree that they're splendid artwork. Also, now the people you have on your friend list get miniature like personnel files, which also looks very cool.

Yes, advande cost 1sp. change weapon and reload 1 SP

Advance does NOT cost 1SP. Re-read the bold.

ZZzzz still you lose 1 sp for advance

And if you realod and the end of battle well 1 sp less

My thoughts (also some bits @Spiderjerusalem):

- About the map: it does all look very Christmas-tree like, but I do appreciate the new icon types. Perhaps the key here would be to leave the variety in descriptive icon types, while making the colours a bit less awkward. Also, the "survivor in need of help" icon is easily mistaken for the "subway entrance". Perhaps it should be optimized.

By the way, are there any locations with the W marker? I've only yet seen $ markers and the occasional Q marker. Perhaps it's just me. About your suggestions with colour - a tooltip would be adequate, but a mixed colour icon could work, too, mayhap. Something like Magic: The Gathering's hybrid mana icons, if you know what I mean.


- About the combat: I don't have pistols either, but I seriously hope it doesn't happen with the PKM, or I shalt assault the nearest available target in a particularly hardcore manner. :3

The advance bug seems quite annoying - I hope it gets fixed soon. As for the SP consumption, my guess is it actually *is* supposed to consume SP and it's being restored due to a bug. I very much doubt anything related to SP would ever go our way, but here's to faintly hoping it's as you say.


- About the GUI changes: location name above minimap is redundant, but I don't really think it hurts to be there, I suppose. May come in handy every now and then.

Animated arrows on the location view are useful, but removing the buttons is going to be a bit tricky to become accustomed to in the meantime. Also, the translucent yellow arrow can easily pass unnoticed, especially when you're speed-exploring/scavenging and find a new accessible store. Just like the Search button, these things should be rather flashy - unlike the Map colours - so that we don't miss them by accident. Pretty please?

Also, about the entry points - I feel the major problem isn't so much the missing the arrow problem, but rather how you can no longer easily see safehouse barricade levels this way. You have to first click the arrow, which increases the whole process. It may sound as nitpicking, but really, if it wasn't broken, why do you guys insist on fixing these things? With all due respect, aren't there more important features to work on than this? Oh, well.

The new combat animations are okay, but I seriously feel the popup text should be more noticeable. What's with low-contrast colours? The escaping percentage on the random encounter popup also has a barely noticeable value. Seriously, up the contrast on these colour codes a bit.

On a less appreciative note, the combat animations are causing attacks to take a lot longer for me, as I have to wait for the animation to end before it gets processed. That's making combat take a gazillion longer. Not happy about that, I must say.

There were some other bits here and there that I'm pleased with overall, regarding the GUI. The addition of the time towards next skill point gain is nice, though mostly unneeded - but could be useful at times.


- About the new nerfs:

Well, the stat point nerf was coming, we all knew about that, but personally I would've rather have a level cap with 5 skill points per level. That's a much more stable and balanced system, and quite frankly, what's the point of levelling up to 400 with an increasingly high XP requirement if the reward for it is going to be increasingly low?

As for the HP nerf, well, frankly it makes sense - there were many players out there with increased HP simply due to part of their Constitution having been applied prior to the HP per CON ratio change and part with the new values, so now we're all on an even board. On the other hand, it does mean max HP is going to be 20 + 200/2, which is 120 HP. Is 120 HP really enough for tanking large mobs, especially in melee? I suppose with proper armor and hit-and-run in some cases could be the key, seeing as distance increases when you escape, allowing you to return to a melee fight and go ranged again, but still.

I'm not against this change, as it's all more even and fair this way, though it does annoy me that I'm going to lose quite a chunk of my recently-gained health this way - and more. Le sigh. Still, this does raise a question: what about all those characters with more than 200 CON from before the skill cap? Are all those points going to be taken into the equation or just up to 200 points? If you're going to nerf for great justice, then at least do it all the way.

EDIT: Just checked the ranks and many players have their HP unchanged. Are their pages simply outdated, or because they haven't logged in the values haven't updated, or were they really not updated at all? Even after calculating with CON over 200 the value's not right. Would like some clarification here.

Hmm. Think that's about it. :3

Yes, advancing costs 1 sp now. Which is an insane waste of SP. Especially for melee players like me. Has anyone checked if we can still attack raiders on close combat mode? I have tried three times and no luck.

I seriously HOPE that doesn't mean we have to attack them from a distance now.

advancing costs 1 sp

And georgosu says:

Regarding the higher SP cost in combat because of the 10 yard advance button, we'll need to rebalance that as it isn't meant to cause an increased SP cost, but simply to make the distance in combat easier to understand. It's not done yet and we'll be tweaking it more shortly.

Until I'm told differently by devs, or the game get permanently fixed so that movement costs 1 SP, I'll stand by my opinion that movement does not cost SP. And I again refer you to b.3) (which may or may not be correct, considering the SP rollercoaster in combat)

- I don't usually attack raiders, but I guess I'll give it a shot. If you can't close with them just spray them with PKM/M11a1 fire. Or just get a sniper for the job. That's what I bought my PKM for.

- My opinion on the "non nerf" of higher level players is taht they need to login for the nerf to take effect. Tkobo did, but he may have narrowly avoided it. We'll see what happens to the others as the days go by and they login.

- There'll need to be some rebalancing of some sort on map 3, engaging mobs of 50 zombies with 120HP is pure suicide.

Yeah in combo with the new system of combat and HP reductions, I am actually having a challenge in combat. Not sure if thats good or bad. Then again, I never did level up Con that much, so that could be improved.

I don't like the current advance system... to the extent of my knowledge, advancing does cost SP. Also, it is now not advance to within range, but advance 10 ft. Don't like that, especially because It's causing me problems when I try to advance within melee range. Either the zombies will crawl forwards, or they jump rapidly, and that changes randomly.

Like the new map format, but not happy with the coloring, as mentioned above.

Like the new training interface.

Not enjoying the animations. They slow down combat and don't even look that good. No offense to the Devs of course, but there should be an option.

I would rather be seeing actually game updates, like new safehouse facilities, or responses to the ideas to new armor and weapons, rather than graphical updates, although if thats what it takes to reel in new customers, then I suppose it can't be helped.

Personally on the note of the HP change, I think the system should be revised to add close to at least 150 max HP. I have some great armor and i was minutely struggling with 200 HP to take on map 3 mobs with an F2000 and melee. 150 would both increase the challenge slightly while making it possible to get through combat on Map 3.

@hellslayer:

About your HP suggestion, what about this?

Option A: Starting HP value is 50HP. Max value becomes 150HP (+100HP from maxed out CON). Advantages are higher HP values for map 3, disadvantages are too high HP for a newcomer and map 1 will probably become a breeze.

Option B: Assuming a level span between 1-400, a bonus of 10HP for every 100 levels reached, starting at LV100 or LV200, depending on your choice. Advantage is the bonus isn't as breaking as Option A for newcomers, but it's still present. It's also an incentive for levelling up.

Starting at LV100 means the last bonus is acquired at LV300, so levelling to LV400 isn't as enticing. On the other hand, starting at LV200 ends the bonus at LV400, but also renders its acquisition too late for the value it adds. Not enough cost/benefit ratio there.

Option C: Cap the max level to LV200, define skill points per level to 5 Pts and add a bonus of +30HP for reaching LV200, or +15HP for LV100 and LV200 both. This way, levelling becomes appeasing and not at all a frustration and the bonus is still attainable. Remember, you can always balance XP requirements for levels if you choose to cap them. I'm not saying LV200 should be as hard to achieve as LV400, though - perhaps LV300 or so. Your call.

What do you all think? Sounds better to me than having 120 HP and fighting a mob solo. Would be rendered obsolete if the devs decided to add cooperative combat into the game, but I don't see that coming in the near future.

My hps dropped from circa 450 to 150,and if they go ahead with the stat nerf my hps will likely drop to 120.

Map 3 now serves zero purpose.It used to be the place to level, as large groups of zombies 30,40,and 50 are very common there,so you used to be able to minimize travel and maximize kills.

With the hp nerf, and its a HUGE nerf,and the sp costs for advancing,there is now NO purpose to fighting large groups of zombies.As you can fight the small groups of 14 or less and take almost no damage,or fight a few large groups and be out of hps very fast.

I find theres no longer anything to actually do in the game.
Training was near pointless verse leveling before the recent and upcoming nerfs,now its even more so.And logging in to assign the char some training,then logging out while it does it really doesnt count to me as "gameplay"
Hunting zombies is now nerfed down to looking for the small groups only.Almost completely removing any reason at all for map 3.
And facilities and building is extremely limited and easily completed as far as the ones that actually matter.Which are not many.
And of course leveling is now near pointless also.

The one activity,other than walking around looting all day(which is pointless as theres nothing fun to do with the money)which was killing zombies,is now greatly impeded.

@tkobo:

I understand and share your frustration to an extent, but let's be realistic here - the nerf had already been implemented ever since the change to Constitution, it just hadn't been applied to CON points applied before the update.

Thus, it was simply a matter of time before these values would be synchronized with the new changes. While your gameplay may have been largely disturbed, it makes no sense that a new player can only reach 120HP while an old player can have 800+ HP, for obvious reasons.

However - the devs have performed this change and they have applied it retroactively. They now have the responsibility, as Spiderjerusalem says, to rebalance enemies, especially in map 3, so that players can still play normally even with the cap of 120HP. Otherwise, it's a very unwise move.

I find the HP nerf interesting, I finally remember how it felt to actually struggle to stay alive. But I agree, big groups (hordes) would be impossible now, especially raiders.

Imo, not only on map 3 but on the other maps as well. Enemies got harder before this update.

They need to fix those groups of enemies that feature both raiders and zombies. In a reply, devs said it was a bug but I think that by now they should have that fixed already, yet I found a group of 6 raiders and 2 zombies on map 1 the other day. These kind of groups might be too hard for low levels, I think.

The whole hp change was unwise to begin with.What happens when the other "promised" maps actually get implemented ?
Do they serve any measurable purpose if they are simply more of the same ?Do we really need more map 2's ?And if they make them harder than map 3,whos gonna be silly enough to go there with only 120 hps ?

Two things allow the player to actually play,sp and hp.The more they remove of either,the more play they remove from the player.The more play they remove from the player,the less likely said player remains.AND the less likely said player PAYS to do so,even if he does remain.

Don't forget about hunger, tkobo. Imo, hunger system was implemented way too soon. It's getting close to becoming a hardcore server.

I just think that there so many things they have to fix before implementing new ones.

Also, is there really a point for test server now? I'm not trying to sound mean but devs are supposed to try the features there before implementing them here. I play some times there and I had already reported the bugs we're experiencing now on the main server. I'm just saying you should better make things work perfectly on test server and then move them to the main server. Personally, I prefer less updates but good gameplay than a lot that are not working properly. Just a thought.

I think additional maps would be a terrible idea as, from what I've explored of map 2, the game is alot more developed location wise on map 1 than it is on map 2. I imagine 3 is even more location barren than map 2, and that many of the special locations of map 3 (like on map 2) are special only on the outside, with no fleshed out interiors. Making more maps with half finished old ones seems like a terrible idea.

The problem with keeping top level, fully maxed out characters (and their players) active and interested is a longstanding problem (of the MMO gaming industry, not just ZP). Since ZP can't exactly launch "And now the Invaders from Sylvanian lands expansion pack!"... it's difficult. Still say expanding the NPCs into clans of their own is the way to go.

Indeed, I think new maps is definitely out of the question. Map 3 is pretty much incomplete and since the required level has been raised as well, it wouldn't be functional at all.

*nods at Spidey's last paragraph*

i fail to see whats so hard about keeping players engaged.Its all about caps and rewards.SOFT caps good,hard caps bad.

As for npcs,they should have from the beginning had recruitable npcs.Collectable,based on basically the players level equaling the chars reputation.Find a mechanic hiding out in his garage,offer to take him to the sanctuary of your safehouse :
If your level 5 he laughs and says no thanks, im safer here then with you.
If your level 300 he says,man that sounds great,I hear youve killed 60k+ zombies and maintain a very safe safehouse.Lead the way ,im in.

Allow the recruited npcs to be assigned jobs,and have them give bonuses.Make the npcs random spawns,with random recruitment requirements,wokring on a scale that adjust with the players level ,and youve got a never ending hunt for npcs to save,that can keep many players out there searching and collecting for a very long time.

I mean geez, how much of a no brainer is it for the player to be able try and save people they meet during a zombie apocalypse..........

and admin says:

However going forward the concept of the lonewolf safehouse is that they will function as your personal headquarter with some basic squad management features (more info will follow later but in short you will be leader of a small squad/small colony of survivors in your lonewolf safehouse while also being part of a bigger army/clan commanded by the clan leader).

It's not my eaters, but it's better than nothing. Let's see what comes of it.

Complaining about game up-dates diminishing the enjoyment of the game.

Didn't see that coming

Again needs to be more communication between between developers and players.

Advancing now cost 1 Sp...
Taking aid items WHILE IN COMBAT is now a turn cost (enemy will hit you when you use it)

In the beta server all this was implemented

well Let's all fun

Is so much awesome





: I said it first!

http://blog.zombiepandemic.com/Forum/tabid/65/aff/1/aft/2951/afv/topic/Default.aspx

I stand corrected on the SP issue then.


Regarding how to balance it out I can see two options:

a) Remove SP cost from advancing (obvious)

b) Add a "hold position" button, that costs no SP, and neither moves me forward nor backwards.


Failing both of the above I suggest taking matters into one's hands:

a) Buy a sniper rifle and pop away at incoming zeds. if you're wasting SP you might as well get a few kills while you're at it.

b) Don't use medical items outside combat. Use them at the beginning of combat, to eat up turns.

c) Same for food. Eat in-combat, don't spend turns advancing.


Adapt.

Posted By georgosu on 27-09-2011 01:04 PM

Hi guys,
Just some quick input (I'm busy fixing a lot of the stuff you've reported ;-)...
The SP cost for advancing is indeed in the game now. We're discussing how to obtain a good balance for melee vs ranged combat, as melee obviously is affected the most from this (and we don't want to penalize a certain style of play). We'll get back to you with more info shortly.

Thanks for working hard on the bug reports! I'm sure it's not easy after a big update.

I decided to sleep on things and see if I felt less "blah" about a few of these changes. Turns out that sleeping is good, but I still feel blah about some ZP updates!

I feel less blah about the combat animations. I still think they're unnecessary and make combat slower, since there's the scrolling combat text on the right, but I'll get used to it.

The new doors are pretty, but I miss being able to land on a location and instantly see the condition of the barricading.

The new map colors are okay, but what happened to the orange dot so you knew where you were? I literally got lost so many times -- having to hover over every safehouse to see if that's where you are when calculating distances is really annoying. =/

I still feel VERY MUCH BLAH about not being able to kill an enemy group with 4-6 raiders in it with my melee character. She's level 90, max close combat, con, strength, working on agility, and she's dying before she can even advance close enough to get a swing on one raider. That's when she can advance at all. In one fight yesterday, she was stuck at 39 distance away, unable to advance, while the raider just kept shooting.

And advancing costs too much SP. There's no way moving 70 distance to engage an enemy melee style should cost more than going 3 blocks on the map. Just make advancing ANY distance cost 1SP per enemy group or something like that. It's okay if it's not perfectly realistic -- you have to balance realism with fun, and burning up all your SP just to move in on enemies is NOT fun or viable.

Something is going to have to give because now melee is not even an option for character development. When I started playing ZP a few months ago, I thought it was cool that you could develop your character in different ways -- some people chose melee, others high-powered guns, still others chose to avoid fighting and have superhuman tech. With the skill capping, fine, everyone except a hundred or so very old players will have the same skill levels eventually. It was disappointing, but I can live with it.

I built my 3rd character for flavor -- gave him a WWII theme with his gear and weapons. I know a Garand and 1911 aren't efficient for killing, but he tries to kill very little, and just barricades, loots and builds. But he was having trouble paying for the little ammo he does use, so I decided to level up his close combat for running around Map 1 -- now he can't kill anything either way, even with 100+ in five skills. o_O

I feel like all characters are being pushed not only to the same mandatory playstyle, but also to the same weapons. What's the point of having so many awesome gun descriptions if all but a few of them are useless in terms of ammo expense and ability to dispatch increasingly difficult enemy groups?

What it comes down to for me is that it's too expensive in terms of in-game dollars to play ranged combat, and too expensive in SP/HP to play melee, just for my sweeping and building characters on Map 1. (I haven't even talked about Ercasse, my "main" character. >.< ) I don't really like being forced to play every character as the same hybrid range-melee style. It's boring and not my idea of engaging gameplay. And, since everything is coming at increasing costs of time and money, and interest, I am forced to play less SP, and my alt characters are kind of useless, which means no need for the premium perks.

So yeah, very many words and very much blah.

Okay, map no longer looks like a christmas tree. I hate being that guy who's never happy, but the colours are kinda bland now. If none of the previous colour/symbol suggestions are implemented then might I at least suggest :

- Black with symbol for Location with access to the subway.
- Solid Blue with symbol for Location with shops (people are used to it)
- Solid Violet with symbol for Location where you can get quests.
- Solid Light Blue with symbol for Location with crafting facilities
- Solid Brown with symbol for Location with Safehouse

Additionally... That location text on the upper right area that I wasn't crazy about? How about changing it to "Beta version 1.28.7, updated on 27-09-2011", with a link to the log?

Everyone's always going "Has there been an update? What's changed? Why is (thing) now different?"

It seems like a far more useful use of the space. Plus everyone a) forgets where the log link is b) doesn't know it exists

..and another nerf,as running now costs 3 pts.

from combat? it always did, at least since I've been here

Posted By Caelann on 27-09-2011 04:43 AM
@hellslayer:
About your HP suggestion, what about this?
Option A: Starting HP value is 50HP. Max value becomes 150HP (+100HP from maxed out CON). Advantages are higher HP values for map 3, disadvantages are too high HP for a newcomer and map 1 will probably become a breeze.
Option B: Assuming a level span between 1-400, a bonus of 10HP for every 100 levels reached, starting at LV100 or LV200, depending on your choice. Advantage is the bonus isn't as breaking as Option A for newcomers, but it's still present. It's also an incentive for levelling up.
Starting at LV100 means the last bonus is acquired at LV300, so levelling to LV400 isn't as enticing. On the other hand, starting at LV200 ends the bonus at LV400, but also renders its acquisition too late for the value it adds. Not enough cost/benefit ratio there.
Option C: Cap the max level to LV200, define skill points per level to 5 Pts and add a bonus of +30HP for reaching LV200, or +15HP for LV100 and LV200 both. This way, levelling becomes appeasing and not at all a frustration and the bonus is still attainable. Remember, you can always balance XP requirements for levels if you choose to cap them. I'm not saying LV200 should be as hard to achieve as LV400, though - perhaps LV300 or so. Your call.
What do you all think? Sounds better to me than having 120 HP and fighting a mob solo. Would be rendered obsolete if the devs decided to add cooperative combat into the game, but I don't see that coming in the near future.

I think that option B would work the best, but split it into +1 Hp every 10 levels to balance it further. Also, I don't think that total level should cap off, only skill points.

And if i had to suggest to the map colors, I would say go back to the original scheme and then MAYBE only add one or two new things. I think shops+quests+crafting facilities should all be blue, like the old version. I don't use the subway, so I don't particularly care about the markers for it.

running from combat was 1 pt til this last patch.

Yes, running cost used to be 1 SP.

Alright, you guys (devs) once said that the game was meant to play in no more than 15 minutes daily (or 20, I don't remember well). Besides the waste of SP that advancing now means, it's also a waste of TIME. So please, if you want the server to be slightly more efficient, remove it. Take it back to how it used to work before.

And about the colors, I like Spider's idea, just make safehouses violet and the mission shops brown.